Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 6th, 2016, 5:00 pm

So I have a thought about the usage of other weapons, with the same techniques as the sword, but it is not a sword. So you might be wondering what I am blabbering about. Well I got into a situation where I walked with my cane (a usual thing for a fancy young chap, isn't it) and a so called robber tried to attack me and grab my wallet (which he eventually failed to do). He tried to attack from the right, doing so by sending a punch towards my head, hitting my bowler's from my head (an act wordy of a duel). I had already moved back about 4ft to get into a position where I could control the situation. He sent punch after punch which I answered with aggressive attacks with my cane towards his fists (using typical sword techniques). I got full control over the situation by throwing him down to the ground. Then I waited for the police to arrive and that was that. Before I go any further into the subject, I can assure you that you need not to worry, I only got hit twice and they were glancing hits and I only have a few hurt parts apart from a little pride (that buffoon hit my hat, didn't he) and I am sitting here with some tea and rarebits to end the day (yum!).

Could this senario have happened during the IA? I know that many cultures had canes and staves, so the resource is the, but still would it be a possibility? Some Celtic civilians could have owned swords, but when it comes to the rest... Not all situations are suitable for spear usage. Thanks for your thoughts and theories and I hope to have a good time reading them. *biggrin*
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Patrick Duerr on December 6th, 2016, 10:40 pm

Early modern Irish use of the shillelagh is often seen as in inherited use of the club as an impromptu weapon as well as a walking staff... But Iron Age clubs, from what I understand, were less like a walking stick, but the techniques paired with a shield could be similar, I suppose. Sword technique does rely more on cutting techniques than bludgeoning, though, even in our age. Sticks demand blunt force, so some difference would be there.
Yet, period warfare (at least pre-Roman?) was less about surprise attacks (the type that would make defending yourself with a walking staff necessary) and catching opponents off-guard than the conditions that made shillelaghs popular (ban on other weapons I assume?). All evidence I've studied so far says that actual combat equipment was more specialized, and that war was a specific purpose and event. If civilians were going into combat, they would probably be given a spear and/or a knife for tighter fighting, rather than left with just a walking stick.
Nonetheless, it must be conceded that the idea of hitting someone with a stick if it's what you've got is very effective, and very old. It's more a problem of there being lots of other options available.
PS: cheers on the job well done!
Tovta Marae da Augu, Tosgo Mavi Vergalla
User avatar
Patrick Duerr
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 22
Joined: August 19, 2010
My Location: CA
Tribe: Gaesatae
Region: Central Gaul
Time period: La Tene III/D
aka: Pattosos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Angus M on December 7th, 2016, 8:37 am

Well done on defeating your attacker- I bet you wished you had a sword or spear with you at the time! Most ungentlemanly behaviour in knocking off your hat ~ may I suggest a Scottish Burgeonet in future?

New Mountaineering Helmet.jpg

<!-- ReMOVED downlaod wording from attachmnets
Scottish Burgeonet - mugger proofing for today's Gentleman.


I'm sure that throughout the ages travellers carried a stout staff not just as a walking stick but as protection from footpads and bandits.
User avatar
Angus M
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 155
Joined: March 4, 2013
My Location: Scotland, United Kingdom of Dear Old Blighty

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 7th, 2016, 10:25 am

Patrick Duerr wrote:Early modern Irish use of the shillelagh is often seen as in inherited use of the club as an impromptu weapon as well as a walking staff... But Iron Age clubs, from what I understand, were less like a walking stick, but the techniques paired with a shield could be similar, I suppose. Sword technique does rely more on cutting techniques than bludgeoning, though, even in our age. Sticks demand blunt force, so some difference would be there.
Yet, period warfare (at least pre-Roman?) was less about surprise attacks (the type that would make defending yourself with a walking staff necessary) and catching opponents off-guard than the conditions that made shillelaghs popular (ban on other weapons I assume?). All evidence I've studied so far says that actual combat equipment was more specialized, and that war was a specific purpose and event. If civilians were going into combat, they would probably be given a spear and/or a knife for tighter fighting, rather than left with just a walking stick.
Nonetheless, it must be conceded that the idea of hitting someone with a stick if it's what you've got is very effective, and very old. It's more a problem of there being lots of other options available.
PS: cheers on the job well done!


Well when I use the warclub (very rarely due to the risks of hurting my training partner) it is more used like something between a knife and an axe if you understand what I mean. The senario I think would happen is a warband attacking/ a smaller group o warriors attacking a settlement. Here the civilians would not have the time to get the spear. Walking sticks did exist to some extent (not like the line o canes in modern times of course). With the knife or a longknife you cover the close range-mid range, but some situations, like a savage marauder, who does not attack with precise techniques, but with random outburst and uncontrolled attacks (like my poor attacker). In these situations it could be more ideal to use a weapon with mid range-long range (as in melee combat), were one have the choice between mid-long range (in this case between 1-2 meter). With a cane or a stick one could use sword techniques, club techniques and spearlike techniques!


And thanks, a chap got to keep his reputation and not let any buffoon hit the hat from his head *biggrin*
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 8th, 2016, 3:48 am

Angus M wrote:Well done on defeating your attacker- I bet you wished you had a sword or spear with you at the time! Most ungentlemanly behaviour in knocking off your hat ~ may I suggest a Scottish Burgeonet in future?

New Mountaineering Helmet.jpg


I'm sure that throughout the ages travellers carried a stout staff not just as a walking stick but as protection from footpads and bandits.




Well Thank you!, However I think he might need the helmet more than I ! I agree with you on the walking stick being used more as the personal defence weapon. It could, now that I think of it be combined with another weapon like a a longknife or a shorter sword!
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Edwin Deady on December 8th, 2016, 11:34 am

Old style cane defence used strikes and thrusts' Depending on the weight of the cane. We have discussed clubs and they were effective weapons with the Irish stick fighting it final refinement perhaps.

Well done for defeating the felon, sadly in England one might well be charged with possessing an offensive weapon as well. Even get a stiffer penalty than the poor snivelling criminal with his new suit and wily lawyer.
User avatar
Edwin Deady
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: July 28, 2005
My Location: Cornwall
Tribe: Ingaevolc
aka: Aeduin O' Déadaigh

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Denis Grabow on December 9th, 2016, 7:56 am

Canes and staffs are even more versatile than swords, because one can use both ends or the handle to affect an opponent, whereas a blade can usually not be gripped.

Of course, any weapon one is not experienced in handling effectively is more dangerous to oneself than the opponent.

If one is not a trained fighter, it is usually safest to give what is demanded without resistance. Money is not as valuable as health and life.
User avatar
Denis Grabow
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 213
Joined: May 19, 2009
My Location: Sentiacum in Germania Inferior. (or the modern town at the same place)
Tribe: Eburone
Region: Germany, middle Rhine valley
Time period: first century b.c
aka: Brannos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Edwin Deady on December 9th, 2016, 12:44 pm

Our hand and a half sword practice of Fiore includes holding the opponents blade to disarm and your own blade to strike with the crossbar or pommel. Still holding the sword the normal way there are moves when you strike the face with the pommel. Fiore expects one to take out four teeth with the strike and one would hate to disappoint him
User avatar
Edwin Deady
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 1490
Joined: July 28, 2005
My Location: Cornwall
Tribe: Ingaevolc
aka: Aeduin O' Déadaigh

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 9th, 2016, 2:35 pm

Denis Grabow wrote:Canes and staffs are even more versatile than swords, because one can use both ends or the handle to affect an opponent, whereas a blade can usually not be gripped.

Of course, any weapon one is not experienced in handling effectively is more dangerous to oneself than the opponent.

If one is not a trained fighter, it is usually safest to give what is demanded without resistance. Money is not as valuable as health and life.


Sadly He didn't even demand anything, just attacked (It happened to a friend as well as he was walking home). You are right on one thing, if you are not used to a weapon and know the basics of fighting with it. However in my case, I have trained Jujutsu, Aikido, Gentlemen's self-defence club, HEMA (German and English) and IA HEMA (I have been in the IA HEMA community since it first started about 10 years ago), so I have some experience in martial arts. So he ha some trouble. :)
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 9th, 2016, 2:48 pm

Edwin Deady wrote:Old style cane defence used strikes and thrusts' Depending on the weight of the cane. We have discussed clubs and they were effective weapons with the Irish stick fighting it final refinement perhaps.

Well done for defeating the felon, sadly in England one might well be charged with possessing an offensive weapon as well. Even get a stiffer penalty than the poor snivelling criminal with his new suit and wily lawyer.


Well using warclub (which I enjoy to use) is different than a cane, I used both sword techniques and some warclub techniques.

Thanks for the compliment, yea some countries are sadly like that, locking the victim in a cell, rather than the attacker. I gave him a chance to back off and well he didn't take it at first, but he reconsidered after some bashing and mashing if you know what I mean *twisted* !
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on December 13th, 2016, 12:53 pm

Edwin Deady wrote:Old style cane defence used strikes and thrusts' Depending on the weight of the cane. We have discussed clubs and they were effective weapons with the Irish stick fighting it final refinement perhaps.

Well done for defeating the felon, sadly in England one might well be charged with possessing an offensive weapon as well. Even get a stiffer penalty than the poor snivelling criminal with his new suit and wily lawyer.


Also there is the possibility of wrestling and boxing used by Celts.

Image
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Aerdernix MacDane on March 7th, 2017, 12:54 pm

I have great news about my situation, the felon is serving jail time. Also after some thought I have to say that staves and canes were used. Most shepherds would haVe staves (With a hook no less), so it was a very day item or some!
By Teutates! May the sky never fall!
User avatar
Aerdernix MacDane
 
Years of membership
 
Posts: 76
Joined: January 3, 2016
My Location: NORICUM
Tribe: East Boii/Ciumestii
Region: Eastern Danube
Time period: La Téne (400-200 BC)
aka: A. Isarnos Korisos

Re: Not swords, but similar; also do not try to hit a chaps hat!

Postby Angus M on March 10th, 2017, 8:29 am

Aerdernix MacDane wrote:I have great news about my situation, the felon is serving jail time.


Huzzah!

gibbet.jpg

<!-- ReMOVED downlaod wording from attachmnets
Hangin's too good for 'em...
User avatar
Angus M
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Posts: 155
Joined: March 4, 2013
My Location: Scotland, United Kingdom of Dear Old Blighty


Return to Swords

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron