Druids "rules"

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Druids "rules"

Postby Livio Asta on August 19th, 2011, 12:54 pm

Of course we don't have any complete list of behaviour rules teached by ancient druids, but maybe we can find a little bit of it in different sources.
So, i found the sources for "we only fear that the sky falls..." and also for "Praise the gods...", already discussed somewhere in the forum, but i can't find sources for

"Truth in the heart, strength in the arm, honesty in speech." The Celtic Code of Chivalry, imposed by the Druids, according to St. Patrick

that i have seen quoted in the signature of John Olinger.
Can someone help me? Of course i could just send him a PM, but i think it may be interesting for the others too.
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Bob Rafferty on August 20th, 2011, 10:14 am

In truth, I have wondered about John’s sig quote as well. I don’t ever recall seeing it before Kelticos. I’ve looked around and the only references I can find are his posts. Obviously it seems like one of the various Triads, but it isn’t in the ones listed at CELT http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T103006.html There are a few other Triads, including some from Wales, but given the reference to St. Pat, I didn’t think it would be one of those.

Perhaps only he can tell us where it comes from? John, do you feel like sharing?
slán go fóill,
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby John Olinger on August 20th, 2011, 1:53 pm

I came across it on line. Let me see if I can relocate it!
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Livio Asta on August 21st, 2011, 2:45 am

Thank you.
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Edwin Deady on August 23rd, 2011, 4:55 pm

Why would St Patrick mention Druid rules? Does he mention them at all?
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby John Olinger on August 23rd, 2011, 5:29 pm

'don't know, still trying to find it! This will teach me to save my sources!
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Bob Rafferty on August 23rd, 2011, 9:41 pm

Edwin, there are all sorts of references to St. Pat and various Drui in his numerous hagiographies and in other more tangential stories. One relatively well-known story involves the saint doing magical combat with druid over starting a springtime fire (Beltain for the druid and Easter for the saint). In another, druid are depicted as giving a prophecy describing St. Pat’s arrival. It is true that most of these tales do not show said druid in a positive light, but some do, especially those in stories like the second one above and those who convert to the new religion. Some reflect a level of ridicule toward the saint.
slán go fóill,
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Ettore Viscontini on February 6th, 2012, 8:45 am

Honesty in Speech? What about "celtic" overtatment in speech?

p.s. Edwin I already know your position about "Celts", please don't miss the point ;-)
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Livio Asta on February 6th, 2012, 10:01 am

I think it is more like "Once i gave my promise, i will not change it". Always if we find evidences about these "rules".
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Edwin Deady on February 11th, 2012, 6:19 pm

[quote="Ettore Viscontini"]Honesty in Speech? What about "celtic" overtatment in speech?

p.s. Edwin I already know your position about "Celts", please don't miss the point ;-)[/quote]

If the point is to produce Hagiographic sound bites in praise of Celts then it is very relevant to point out that they were prone to exaggeration. We would have no "Celtic" stories else.

If it helps they fined fat people.
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Kristof Denaghel on February 20th, 2012, 6:11 pm

Like to get into this topic. The Saint patric saying is not his referrence to druids, but to the tribe of the fiannan according to what I caught up. (The OBOD forum had a topic about this a few months ago) T
I was amazed to find it here linked to Saint patrick regarding Druids...

Just my 2cp ;)
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby John Olinger on February 20th, 2012, 6:34 pm

I did come across this recently... http://celtic-traditions.com/celtic_values.aspx

"Looking at the sacred spiritual traditions of the Celts we learn to honor life, release ignorance and to be respectful to creation

The classical author Strabo wrote about how the Druids faithfully studied ethical 'moral philosophy'. Another author 'Brendan Myers teaches that the foremost principle of ancient Druids was complete devotion to truth.

The famous St. Patrick is rumored to have asked Oisin (the son of Fionn MacCumhall, what kept his people sustained after the advent of Christianity. Oisin's reply was said to be "the truth that was in our hearts, and the strength in our arms, and the fulfillment in our tongues." It is interesting that Oisin sites truth first... as if it had and overwhelming place in Celtic culture. Personally, between Myers and this evidence, it leads me to believe that the first moral principle of a Celt is that when a moral decision must be made, one should choose truth."
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby John Olinger on February 20th, 2012, 6:37 pm

And... http://www.edwardtodonnell.com/books_wr ... things.htm

"St. Patrick got much the same answer centuries later when a druid explained the foundation of their moral code as, “Truth in the heart, strength in the arm, honesty in speech.” Little wonder then that druids also possessed the political power to cast the deciding vote if the election of a chieftain was at an impasse. "
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Edwin Deady on February 21st, 2012, 3:01 am

Persians and others saw truthfulness as the first virtue. Perhaps a universal social phenomonen that was incorporated into religious principles and then presented as having originated from the religion.
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Livio Asta on February 21st, 2012, 4:40 am

Ok, John, i found the text quoted in your quote ("...is rumored to have asked..."); Kristof Denaghel was right: this specific text is related with Fianna and does not directly talk about druids (but other earlier texts about Saint Patrik's life do, even if they often call the druid "magus").

It is from the Acallam na Senórach (Tales of the Elders), dated to XII century, a dialogue between Saint Patrick and two pagans, Oisin and Cailte, who survived until his times.
The saint asks:
"Who or what was it that mantained you so in life?"
And Cailte (not Oisin) answers:
"Truth that was in our hearts, and strenght in our arms, and fulfilment in our tongues".

Here you can find the full translated text:
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/colloquy_ogrady.pdf

It's up to you all to decide if the text is too late or not, and if Cailte, being a poet, can somehow be considered also a druid or not. But at least we can be sure that these "rules" are not a modern creation.
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Re: Druids "rules"

Postby Ettore Viscontini on February 21st, 2012, 6:32 am

Very interesting

btw irish druid in 400 AD should have little differences in moral/religius believes then "other" ones ;-)
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