Lugh all over Europe ?

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Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby solenne Meyer on May 18th, 2011, 4:30 am

i attended to a conference on Parisii coins.
I was suprised to see how some irish and gallic mythology could actually be the same.

Some coins were shown and we were explained how very small differences between Gallic coins and Greek or roman coins could actually change dramatically how the picture was understood.

For instance a portrait of a Greek army leader was little altered, but with a sign that identified him as the god Lugh / Llew / Lugus.

Image

I was suprised to hear that Lugh, Llew and Lugus were one samed god, with the same attributs :
- long arm (we were shown a coin on which one arm was 3 times longer than the other),
or long hand, wich are a signs of power (same as hindu deities with many arms)
- bright curly hair (a gold coin was on one side only decorated with hair, and on the other side, the face took a third of the coin space, all the rest filled with hair), with a lock on his forehead,
- very tall (we know of a huge bronze statue in Gaul by the arvernes said by the romans to be Mercury, and he is sometimes pictured much bigger than another charachter (ordinary human ?)),
- eye "long in the head"
- holding a spear (or sometimes a bow)

The Romans said that Mercure was the god most worshiped in Gaul. Dominique Hollard thinks that the god that the romans called Mercury was actually Lugh : master of all techniques and arts, can change in bird, associated to the sun.
Lug is much similar to the greek Apollo. He was adopted by the Romans with the same name, but with some differences. For the romans he was mostly the god of medecine, and "lost" some of his greek attributes (spear, sun god...). Mercury was the God of travelers.

here you will find a picture of a coin though to picture Lugus with a bow, a lok of hair falling on his forehead and the eye "long in the head", and another one of a coin from Eastern Europe (maybe Poland) with a man with very long hands.
http://www.mythologie-idf.fr/images/Hollard-monnaies-GIDFMF2011.pdf

I would like to know what you think about that.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Sarah Hare on May 19th, 2011, 11:36 am

There are more monuments and inscriptions to Lugh than any other god and he is a solar diety... I have never read what his hair was like but I do know that the god Ogmios/Ogmia had long curly hair... I wonder if he is just another name for Lugh, because he was also a solar deity and had a widespread following, too. I have also read that a god on Gaulish coins was Bel (also a solar deity.)

I wouldn't disagree with the statements in your post, though!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 19th, 2011, 11:53 am

It's not only Irish and Gallic, Llew Llaw Gyffes of Welsh legend (see Math, son of Mathonwy in the Mabinogion) is the same god with a slightly different face. Lugos/Lugh/Llew is the divine protoype for human kingship, often married to the goddess of Sovereignty. He is skilled at anything he turns his hand to and there are several references to all three of them having strong connections to shoemaking (!?!)

His name pretty much means 'The Shining One' and he would probably be the best candidate for the king of the Celtic pantheon. Considering 'Beli' also means 'Bright', it's not too far a stretch to see them as pretty much the same deity. Comparisons with Mercury are made mainly because he would be worshipped by travellers and merchants who wished for prosperity and protection.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Sarah Hare on May 19th, 2011, 12:20 pm

Wouldn't the Dagda would be the "king" of the Celtic pantheon? As he is the father of the gods?
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 20th, 2011, 6:30 am

The Dagda seems to be on the fringes of the pantheon, true, he's the father of the gods, but he's never the king. If you read Irish and Welsh legends they have the Dagda (or wild herdsman) but they have Nuada of the Silver Hand who is then replaced by Lugh or Math ap Mathonwy who is then succeeded by Llew. The Dagda (I tend to equate him with Cernunnos in my personal faith, but I'll leave that for individual interpretation) seems to be out in the wilds, on the side of the gods but kind of above them, or wandering the wilds making sure life is going right. Lugos/Lugh/Llew cmes up again and again as the king of the gods: In Irish and Welsh legends, as mentioned above, he arrives late to court and because of his skill is given an important place, which eventually leads to him succeeding the old king. In Gaulish statues, Lugos is frequently seen in the company of a female deity with all the signs of being 'Sovereignty'. Who but the king is married to the Sovereignty of the land?

The Celtic pantheon is a confusing and mystifying thing! You'd think that the Lord Of Life and father of the gods would be their king, wouldn't you?
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Sarah Hare on May 20th, 2011, 10:41 am

Thank you for explaining, Dru! It is a little complex, isn't it? It reminds me very much of Hindu gods and how their pantheon works - also a complicated one. I would also agree that the Dagda seems to be linked with Cernunnos.. I recently read something about that but I'll have to go back through my notes to remember where! Thanks again Dru, I enjoyed reading your explanation. :) You have a very thorough understanding of Celtic gods!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Livio Asta on May 20th, 2011, 11:39 am

If you read french and have a lot of time and patience, i strongly suggest to all of you this book (in fact, two books):

BERNARD SERGENT "Celtes et grecs, I: le livre des heros"; "Celtes et grecs, II: le livre des dieux"

The french scholar compares late insular sources, archeological sources (not often), ancient writers and folklore (mostly from France and Spain), to find as much as possible the caracters of gods and heroes (so: Lugus= Lugh = Llew, etc). Then, he compares the celtic gods and heroes with the greek ones (Lugus = Apollo) in a very specific way, to reach more ancient archetipes.

He works following the indoeuropean comparative method of George Dumezil; i also recommend his books, even he did not often wrote about Celts.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 20th, 2011, 2:02 pm

Sarah Hare wrote: Thanks again Dru, I enjoyed reading your explanation. :) You have a very thorough understanding of Celtic gods!


That's what comes of turning 'Celtic Pagan' at 18 and spending almost ten years trying to figure out what it is you actually believe in... I've always felt that the gods are out there, but it's been a personal struggle trying to get a glimpse of them the way the IA British would have seen them. A bit like authenticity in kit, it gets addictive and a bit of an obsession!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Sarah Hare on May 20th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Livio, I'm very sad to say that the french I do know is Canadian-French, and even that I am not fluent in, so I don't think I could tackle those books. :( But I will look for similar ones in English!

Dru, though it doesn't quite mesh with my personal beliefs, I'd love to discuss Celtic gods with you sometime, if you ever want to. :) It's a very fascinating subject to me!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 21st, 2011, 10:45 am

And certainly a discussion kept off forum, since it's speculation and religion has raised hackles a few times already. I'll PM or facebook you some time soon!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Bob Rafferty on May 22nd, 2011, 8:30 pm

While it is quite true the theological archetype referred to as Lúgh/Lugus/etc. was perhaps the most widespread and identifiable in the Celtic speaking world, but I have some trouble with the argument that this can be seen in the coinage of these same people. I am sure some connection would have been made between these coins and their Gods on many occasions, but I have serious doubts that this connection was singularly made with Lugus. The attributes solenne listed, with the possible exception of the ‘long arm’ and the spear, are not ones I’ve ever come across in connection with Lugus. I would really like more info on images of bows on coins. I’m not fully convinced the design on the coin linked to is really a bow. Are there more images with these ‘bows’ to be found?
This theory strikes me as one where data is cherry picked to support that theory. There are so many coins that look very similar to those described, but have vastly different imagery exist. What does seem to have been the common theme was the original coinage used by Phillip II (the “Greek army leader” solenne mentioned) to hire Celtic mercenaries. This coin remained THE coin for Celtic mercenaries for centuries with steady, gradual changes occurring over the years. For an interesting animated image of this transformation, try http://www.writer2001.com/parisii.htm.
This is not to say, there were never connections between Lugus and some of these coins, but as a whole, I don’t see it. Other Deities were likely connected with these coins and probably more often. Given that these coins seem to have been primarily used to hire warriors and warbands, other Deities actually seem more likely. Ones associated with Mars, in the interpretatio Romana, seem at least as likely if not more so than any Lugus-type with His connection with Mercury.
All of this aside, I would be willing to hear more about this idea. Can you offer more information?
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Bob Rafferty on May 22nd, 2011, 9:08 pm

If I might continue a little about Celtic Deities, and given that this particular board is titled as covering ‘Mythology’ I would argue this is just the place to discuss current understanding and scholarship on the subject. I fully agree with Livio’s comments about Sargent and especially George Dumezil. Some have taken Dumezil’s tripartite system to extremes, but as one of several lenses through which to view the Gods, it is an amazingly useful and insightful tool. Another useful book is Comparative Mythology by Jaan Puhvel, although it is not without some flaws (the hazard of trying to cover too much area too quickly; the broad stroke ideas are generally worthwhile, but the detail work is often based on incomplete or dated information). Mircea Eliade is another great author worth reading on the subject, though his work is not specifically Celtic focused.

As He is the original focus of this thread, I'd like to start by respectfully saying Lúgh is NOT a sun god. This is a hold over from 19th century Victorian scholarship. In truth, no Indo-European people had a sun god, per se. In short, the Gods were generally 'Celestial' and their opponents, like the Greek Titans, were often more primal. In the Greek system, Apollo had solar connections, but Helios the Titan was the sun. In Irish cosmology the Fomhóraigh fill the role of the Titans. There is a great article written about Lúgh/Lugus/etc available in several places online by the late Alexei Kondratiev. One good url is http://www.newtara.org/lugh_essays_001.asp . As for the rest of the Deities, a somewhat dated article by the same author can be found here, http://www.imbas.org/articles/basic_celtic_deity_types.html. The first paragraph of this particular article is as valid today as the day it was originally written and should be committed to memory.

To focus on An Daghdha (mod. Ir.), I have to disagree with some statements made. First, he was the leader of the Gods after the death of Nuada and Lúgh, if we are to believe the stories from Ireland. I also doubt any real connection between Cernunnos and An Daghdha. They were clearly different in a rather fundamental way in that the former is of the wilderness (outside the tuath) while the later is specifically concerned with the goings on inside the tuath. He isn’t the ‘father’ of the Gods, although one of his ‘names’ is Ollathair. This epitaph is occasionally, although incorrectly translated as “all father”, it is properly translated at “great/high father” with the olla- portion coming from the same root as ollam(h). He was never, to my knowledge, ever a ‘wild herdsman’ even if he did have a pair of magical swine that were said to regenerate daily (a common theme in IE stories, especially northern cultures). Some of his other ‘names’, such as Eochaid Ollathair (Horsemounted Warrior Great Father) and Ruad Rofhessa (Lord of Great Knowledge) suggest his position in the pantheon was considerably different from how the surviving stories seem to present him. He is likely cognate with Sucellos from the continent, but he also shares elements with Tarantis.

Many of the imagery we have of Celtic Deities show a God/Goddess pair. It isn’t usually considered a God and Sovereignty, but rather the Goddess is viewed as the ‘source’ of a power and the God is the ‘actuator’ of that power. This is similar to the Hindu concept of ‘shaki’. The pair represents a whole, or at least a complete conceptual ideal. This pairing does not show up as poignantly in Irish and Welsh depiction for a myriad of reasons, but the dynamics of it are still buried in the stories, think An Daghdha and An Morríghan before the Second Battle of Moytura or Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Sarah Hare on May 23rd, 2011, 10:48 pm

Bob, I think Dru just means that we'd rather talk about his personal religious views off the forum, as some people haven't appreciated such discussions in the past. But by all means, talk about Celtic deities on here, that's not a problem!! :)
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby solenne Meyer on May 24th, 2011, 3:26 pm

This theory strikes me as one where data is cherry picked to support that theory. There are so many coins that look very similar to those described, but have vastly different imagery exist.


that's what i suspected.

unfortunately I can't share much more about the conference, we were shown many coins, but the only ones i managed to find online are in the link form the conference (and no references were given).

the eye "long in the head" is supposed to come from a scottish text

thanks for your answear Bob, I'll have a look at the links.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 25th, 2011, 8:44 am

I think your interpretation of the Celtic gods can vary massively depending on what you read. I've read multiple sources showing Lugh's partner as sovereignty, and others that have drawn comparisons with An Dagda and Cernunnos. Most sources I've read cite An Dagda as father of Danu, and since the Irish gods are known as the Tuatha De Danaan, i.e., the people of Danu, and normally have Danu as their mother, that would have An Dagda as their grandfather and ultimately supreme father. As supreme father he is comparable to Caesar's reference to Dis Pater, and Dis Pater being a disasscoiated cthonic deity can be compared to Cernunnos.

I've read an interesting reference that suggests Tiu/Tyw of the Nordic pantheon is Teutatis, i.e. the god of the people or tribe. Now, I'm not sure, but it would appear that Tiu is from an older set of gods than Odin and Thor, and that he gets superceded by these new gods. Interesting, is it not, that he loses a hand to Fenrir, just as Nuada loses a hand and is no longer suitable for kingship. Is it possible that Nuada/Tiu/Nodens/Lludd is a memory of the original tribal deity who has been superceded by more recent gods, explained by his maiming, so the people haven't lost him completely (much like Brigit becoming a Christian saint and therefore not lost to the people with the coming of Christianity), just that he becomes less important. Thus Lugh becomes overall king because he can do so much more than the original tribal god, by nature of being skilled in all arts. Is there some symbolism that Lugh is part Fomorii in Irish legend?

Is it possible then, that we see the early indigenous tribal religion of individual tribal deities being superceded by a pan-cultural religion with the arrival of Celtic culture, and that Lugh represents Celtic culture, iron-working, warfare, artwork, poetry etc... ?

Fair enough though, I'd agree that the goddess tends to be the actuator of the power of sovereignty rather than being sovereignty herself, but she still represents the marriage of a king to his land
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Steven M. Peffley on May 25th, 2011, 11:12 am

Adding to Dru's comments, a correspondence can be made between Lugh and Odin.
Whereas Lugh is, if not a Sun God, he is associated with Light. I do not recall anything similar with Odin. Both are
considered to be formidable warriors, but more importanly both resort to "Magical" ( Priest Caste ) means to accomplish
some tasks.
Both have a Spear as a primary associated weapon. ( Lugh > Gae Assail/Luin; Odin > Gungnir )
Both are associated with Ravens ( Lugh > Morrighan/Badb; Odin > Hugin/Munin )
Odin sacrificed an eye, and is permanently one-eyed. Lugh being half-Fomorian might carry the parallel.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 25th, 2011, 12:09 pm

Lugh killed Balor the one eyed by casting a stone through his eye, I don't know if there's a link there?

OK, I'm about to go on a speculation trip here, my mind has been at work while out walking the dog... Nothing that follows is based on any reading, it is purely speculation and theorising and will probably fall apart under serious scrutiny...

Balor has one eye, which has the ability to destroy all before it, scorching and burning. Does this sound like the sun to anyone else? Now, as Bob has already pointed out, the gods tend to be celestial, and the titans primal, he cited Helios as the sun. Is it possible that Lugh's defeat of Balor is the triumphing of the new gods over the old animistic beliefs of before, the victory of technology and culture over the frightening and unpredictable forces of nature? Now at the same time we have the Welsh tradition of descending from Beli Mawr, linked with Belenos or Beli/Bile. Apparently Beli should be pronounced BAY-lee. It is a name normally taken to mean 'bright' and has had many comparisons drawn with having 'aspect of a solar deity'. Is it therefore possibly that when the Celtic culture arrived the British tribes saw themselves as descended from the sun, but had the sun as a dual nature god, both beneficial and destructive? To completely eradicate Beli/Balor would have been a blow to the locals, but to have his good side, the ancestor god, or Beli/Belenos staying with the 'good guys' and banish his destructive power as Balor overcome by the new kid on the block (Lugh), may well have sat far better with native conscience, allowing a smoother transition, just as Christianity demonised those old gods it could, but turned those the people loved into saints and heroes (note that in the Welsh and Irish legends written down by Christian monks the gods are heroes rather than gods).

So, to summarise the theory:

The old tribal religions include animistic deities and a god of the tribe. Along comes the Celtic culture with all it's new aspects, technology, craft, language, and it's own gods. The old gods are assimilated into the pantheon, but cast down from their original places, or defeated and overcome (Nuada loses a hand in battle, and can no longer be king, so hands power to the all-skilled Lugh, Beli is still seen as ancestor god, but his darker more frightening side is disempowered by Lugh destroying the scorching eye of Balor).

As I said, wild theorising, but I thought I'd post it up for discussion. (Braces himself for being torn apart...)
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Denis Grabow on May 25th, 2011, 5:22 pm

Dru, I think you are right with your speculation. In the Norse mythology, there are two kinds/families of gods. The Aesir and the Vanir. The Aesir like Odin and Thor are the newer gods, being the victors of a war between Aesir and Vanir.

Quote Wikipedia: "In Norse mythology, the Æsir–Vanir War was a war that occurred between the Æsir and the Vanir, two groups of gods. The war ultimately resulted in the unification of the two tribes into a single tribe of gods. The war is an important event in Norse mythology, and the implications of the war and the potential historicity surrounding the accounts of the war are a matter of an amount of scholarly debate and discourse."

"Proto-Indo-European basis
As the Vanir are often considered fertility gods, the Æsir–Vanir War has been proposed as a reflection of the invasion of local fertility cults somewhere in regions inhabited by the Germanic peoples by a more aggressive, warlike cult.[3] This has been proposed as an analogy of the invasion of the Indo-Europeans."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesir-Vanir_War
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby solenne Meyer on May 26th, 2011, 1:44 pm

It is really difficult to make sens of Celtic mythology and understand links between the different europeans myth.

Another theory, from Steve Blamires, is that the whole story of the Invasion of ireland is about the integration of the physical realm (Fir Bolg), the mental one (Fomore) and the spiritual (Tuatha De Danaan).

Is there some symbolism that Lugh is part Fomorii in Irish legend?

Lugh's mother Eithne is Fomoire, his father Cian of the Tuatha de Danaan, and his foster mother, Tailtu is Fir Bolg.
Thus Lugh is a son from the 3 main races of Irish gods.

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"dieu aux oiseaux" (God with birds) from Dijon museum.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Bob Rafferty on May 26th, 2011, 11:45 pm

I could not agree with you more Dru, depending upon what one reads, one can come to vastly different conclusions. If we read Lebor Gabála Érenn (Book of Conquests), one of the older texts and the source of the term Tuatha Dé Danann, we find quite different genealogy. Danu is not the primordial mother, in truth, the name never actually appears in the text. There is a character named Danand who is the granddaughter of Ogma who bears three sons by her father. These three, Brian, Iuchar and Iucharba, are collectively referred to as tri Dé Danand, (three gods of Danand). The text goes on to tell us the Tuatha Dé Danann then took their name from these three, although the reason for this choice is not explained. In the Victorian, and later, efforts to make the old Irish tales available to the public, a lot of adjustments and mistakes were made; this is one of them. There are still many being repeated in works that are often otherwise quite worth reading.

As for An Daghdha and Cernunnos being cognates, the former cannot both be celestial God, as he clearly is from the etymology of his names, and chthonic at the same time, as imagery of Cernunnos seems to strongly suggest. I will admit to wanting a connection between An Daghdha and the Cernunnos, but it just doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny. If there is a cognate in pre-Christian Irish cosmology with Cernunnos, it is Cú Roí.

Tyr is almost certainly cognate with Nuada/Nudd/Nodens along with the Greek Neptune (who was originally associated with springs before being expanded to the seas). Whether Teutates is a variation on this archetype or not is open to question, because we simply have so little information on the Gaulish entity. However, if Lucan is to be believed when he connects Teutates to water, then the correlation might well be valid. Continuing the cross-cultural cognates is Thor-Sucellus (and probably An Daghdha). More dot connecting, Lúgh was almost certainly a relatively new addition to the Celtic speaking people’s cosmology. Current scholarship makes the connection between Lúgh and Odin (Steven points out some connection points), though I still find more to connect Lúgh with Loki, in part because of Their mixed heritage. In no way does this mean these are the same God across cultural spectrums, but rather they are derived from similar archetype templates. Understanding one can help in the understanding of another, but not always.

Returning to Goddesses in the Celtic cosmology, remember not all Goddesses are Sovereignty focused. Granted, there are probably more stories dealing with such entities, not all are. There are even some who seem not to be paired with a God, such as the Brigit/Brigantia/etc. form. As imagery began to be more common (often in direct correlation to Roman encroachment) we see pairs of Deities, male and female, with such regularity that they can’t all be Sovereignty, just as all Gods are not Kings. Sometimes, Dr. Freud, a cigar is just a cigar. ;-)

Some arguments have been presented to suggest the battle between the Gods and the UnGods (TdD vs. Fomhóraigh, Olympians vs. Titans, Aesir/Vanir vs. Jotun, etc.) represents the transition between Iron and Bronze age peoples, but this doesn’t really hold up very well either. The battle between the Gods and the UnGods more likely represents the symbolic creation of civilized culture, the carving out and creation of Order in a sea of chaos for the benefit of Humanity. It is probably a lot more involved and complicated.

Now there is a split between the 1st and 2nd Function Deities vs. 3rd Function Deities that represent a conflict between the ruling forces and the production forces. This is what Denis is talking about in his post and is clearest in the Germanic tales. It is possible this represents the coming of the IE culture (the Magic and Militant Functions) ‘invading’ the indigenous peoples (the Production Function), but that is still a contested idea.

Dru, your connection between Balor and the sun is spot on, at least in the destructive, withering form of the sun. Lúgh’s defeat of Balor is symbolic of the wresting of the bounty of the earth from the forces of nature that would deny humanity the harvest. Earlier forms of the tale have the victor wielding a thunder wheel suggesting the 1st Function God winning this for the people with Lúgh taking this role only later. While calling the UnGods (Fomhóraigh, Titans, etc) animistic isn’t entirely wrong, I would say you are closer with the second part of your statement. With your idea of a Deity ‘demonized’ with the coming of Lúgh, you’re very likely close to the mark here as well. The previous 1st Function God was the primary loser when Lúgh was added to the pantheon. The tales we have from Ireland indicate a level of animosity between An Daghdha and Lúgh leading to bloodshed on occasion. As you point out, all of the stories we have, particularly the insular ones, were set down by Christian scribes who had an agenda when they did so; attempting to provide a new cosmology with the new Gods in charge and de-deifying the Gods of the people. Combine this with widely varying stories that were clearly being woven together and its no wonder there is so much confusion about the characters in them.

Dru, I would have to disagree with your final theory though. The Celtic culture didn’t displace the UnGods they brought them with them. That isn’t to say the previous cultures didn’t affect the incoming IE culture, but the Gods/UnGods formula is an important portion of all Indo-European cultures. If we only saw it in Celtic cultural matrices, your idea might well work, but as it is so wide spread, we have to assume this opposing forces idea is part of the Celtic culture. Remember Nuada regains his hand before the Second Battle of Moytura. His displacement is only temporary. I have some ideas about this, but that is way past the scope of what we are discussing here. Lúgh’s defeat of Balor in the Second Battle of Moytura is about the agricultural calendar rather than a cultural transition. Previously Lúgh’s part was played by the 1st Function God.
slán go fóill,
JRR
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Dru Durman on May 27th, 2011, 5:08 am

Cheers Bob, you certainly have a far deeper understanding of the gods than I do! As I said, my theory was thought out without reference material, but rather idle speculations while out walking the dog, and I wasn't expecting it to stand up to close scrutiny. Many thanks for your response, it's given me more to mull over and yet another aspect to how to see the gods!
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Livio Asta on October 19th, 2011, 10:52 am

People able to read french can download this huge paper (about 700 pages) about Lugus:

http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00614164_v1/

I still did'nt read it, but i printed it (unfortunately i can't concentrate for a long time on a screen) and i will as soon as possible.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby solenne Meyer on October 20th, 2011, 5:24 am

merci !
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Neula H on May 10th, 2012, 4:41 am

There is a wood near my house called Luggas Wood, it's tempting to think its another Lugh place name...

And an interesting connection sprang to mind reading the above thread regarding the one-eyed Balor and Odin:

In Hindu Mythology Shiva has a third eye on his forehead, this eye, when it opens, has the power to destroy the world, and then Shiva turns into Kali, his destructive aspect - Kali is usually depicted standing over Shiva's insensate body. Shiva lives as an ascetic and meditates to prevent himself from opening losing his rag, opening his eye and destroying the world.
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Re: Lugh all over Europe ?

Postby Edwin Deady on May 12th, 2012, 2:11 am

People's gods reflect their own culture and societal organisation and the apparent lack of a pantheon becomes more marked the earlier one can go back in the history of an area. Certainly in all areas that I can see the concept of a sky-father as head of a god clan was either a alien introduction or the result of some sort of revelation the truth of which we cannot judge. Even in the Bible one can see the existence of multiple gods at first amongst the Jews.

We can see the apparent lack of hierarchy amongst British Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements with an apparent developing one through the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age. If the idea of a non-hierarchical heaven or village is correct it would seem pointless to look for a pantheon or structured god clan, there wasn't one.
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