Gallic braccae

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Gallic braccae

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 24th, 2009, 4:58 pm

To leave the tunic topics for tunic info, I'm bringing the braccae discussion over here.

Here's another Thorsberg link. I knew there was some reason I didn't think they used curved lines. It looks like most reenactors make the pattern easier by curving the angular front crotch.
http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/ThorsbergTrousers.htm
His pants bag a bit in the seat. The bag may just be inevitable if you want the pants to move well while fighting and squatting.

I'm going to reevaluate my pattern based on the fighting Gaul statue in the Met. I wish I knew whether those braccae have a center seam or a seat flap on the back. I'm going to guess seat flap.
http://www.kelticos.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=897
http://www.flickr.com/photos/elissacorsini/1174043449/in/photostream/
If the crotch really is open, that makes things problematic. I'll have to come up with a non-historic privacy panel that doesn't bunch.
Of course, unless you're walking around with your shirt off, nobody will know what your trouser construction is under your tunic. Slender pants with any type of pelvis could be satisfactory.
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Andrew Malcolm on September 24th, 2009, 9:20 pm

Hi Becky,

That flickr image shows the foot, great. Looks to me like the pants end at the ankle, no enclosed foot attached to the pants.
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 25th, 2009, 7:13 am

Yeah, it's good to not have to fit a foot. Less work = happiness.

Here's another pic from the Met that shows the crotch better. Looks like a straight slit cut across the front with a notch or slit cut in the middle, making a "W" pattern with his legs spread. Likely a gusset attached to this, not left open. Talk about a custom fit!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ian_crowther/2695024386
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Andrew Malcolm on September 25th, 2009, 9:40 am

yes it is an interesting litle fit there in the front.
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on October 9th, 2009, 10:19 am

Dru Durman wrote:Hmmn. I've done some experimenting with trouser patterns and as a result have tried various styles. First thing I realised is that doing the whole 'pyjama bottoms' pattern meant I was constantly patching the crotch. Looking at things like the Thorsbergs and Dammendorfs it becomes clear that a baggy crotch was normal. The 'median' seam of today's trousers just doesn't hold up too well. Also, looking at medieval depictions of peasants working in the fields with their hose off, stripped down to their braies, they look like they're wearing nappies! Hopefully I've been successful in adding the link..
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Braies.jpg
I saw another possible pattern (figure 3 in the sketched attachment) which I really rather like. There's no seam in the middle, just up the sides of each leg. The crotch definitely bags, but in a triangular style very similar to the morroccan 'celt' (also hopefully attached).
http://www.vicus.org.uk/kitguide/index.htm
When I made them myself, I made them fairly loose, but I've also made a pair much closer fitting, literally, like stockings (basically medieval hose joined at the top...) You still get a baggy crotch that won't split, but fitted to the leg. I've (hopefully) attached a pic of me in the loose fitted pair...


Awesome! *biggrin* What do the back of your pants look like?
I'm not seeing the Fig 3 sketched attachment in your original post. The Morroccan Celt prisoner also isn't showing up, but I know which one you're talking about. I think the folded triangular front is definitely one of the styles used. As we're adding more sources, I think we're getting a better idea of the general appearance and the variety of construction methods. Feet and no feet, long and short, exposed belt loops and folded over waist, triangular front and "pouch" front, etc. Whatever the construction is, the silhouette still has narrow ankles. If you guys like baggy pants (and it's a waste to give up your current kit), you might consider the leg wraps discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=544&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=leg+wraps
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Dru Durman on October 9th, 2009, 10:38 am

Sorry, my computer was being annoying and by the time I'd had to try writing the post three times I forgot that link. Hopefully both the braies and the morroccan should be attached to this.

Don't have any pics of the back as yet, and come to think of it, I don't know myself... Since the pattern has no front/back, I'd imagine much the same as the front... I'll add some more pics to show the trousers in general (Please forgive the rest of the kit, some of it's my Dark Age Cornish representation, and the beige tunic was my first attempt... Also most pics are from viking era training sessions, not public displays. Oh, and the one of me dead shows me in knee length, but same design crotchwise...
Attachments
dead.jpg

<!-- ReMOVED downlaod wording from attachmnets
Knee length braccae
volubilis.gif
The Morroccan celt
mbcsbraies.gif
Figure three on here...
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Dru Durman on October 9th, 2009, 10:40 am

Couldn't fit all pics on one post...
Attachments
013.JPG

<!-- ReMOVED downlaod wording from attachmnets
Cheesy grin, but gives idea of general fit
007_edited.JPG

<!-- ReMOVED downlaod wording from attachmnets
To show full leg fit
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on October 10th, 2009, 9:19 am

*biggrin* Great pics.
The Fig 1 pattern is on the Legio XX site, and I've never really liked it. I have a pair of belly dancing/pirate costume pants made just like Fig 2 with drawstring waist and ankles. They're highly voluminous, but very comfy. I hadn't thought of doing Fig 3 since I'd been focused on pants with an inner side seam rather than an outer one, but they turn out looking great! Do you happen to know where these patterns came from? The original sources or publication? They seem familiar, but If I've ever seen them all together it would have been 15 years ago doing fashion history in college.

What's especially useful about Fig 3 is that it could theoretically be made with very little weft waste if you were weaving it from scratch. If you were sure of your measurements in advance and were good enough to control the shape during weaving. Anyone with weaving experience? Would that be too difficult?

It looks like Fig 3 could be an accurate pattern for the pants of the Alesian statuette. Just make extra room at the waist for the foldover, belt loops underneath. And look at where the waistline is - up at the lower ribs, above the navel.
Image
"A fallen Gallic soldier. Bronze statuette from Alesia, second century CE. Musée des Antiquités nationales (St-Germain-en-Laye)"

I'll work on the Met/Cerveti statue reproduction. If anyone has seen it in person, your knowledge is greatly appreciated. *smile* There's also a time difference between the Alesian statuette and the Met/Cerveti statue.
"Marble statue of a fighting Gaul. Greek, Late Hellenistic, 2nd or 1st century BC. Said to be from Cerveteri, Italy"
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Re: Gallic braccae

Postby Dru Durman on October 11th, 2009, 3:39 pm

Hi Becky! The site those patterns came off is:

http://www.larp.com/midgard/braies.htm

I've only just noticed they're a LARP site, but hey, the pattern works, and as they say, its based on an ancient pattern from Lappland.
It could be they've lifted the patterns frm elsewhere, but doing a google search that's what I came up with, and I recall visiting the site before.

I reckon you might be right, you could make a pair lookng like that statue. Can't answer your question on weaving, but I know that you can definitely make a tighter fit to the leg, without loosing flexibility, because you still have plenty of crotch room! My knee lengths are a slightly tighter fit probably because the taper is steeper going from upper thigh to knee as opposed to upper thigh to ankle. I might try a pair that taper to the knee, then taper from there to the ankle, as opposed to straight down.

It's great to see the Alesia statue actually, I wasn't sure there was any archaeology/sculpture the backed the pattern up, but that fella could easily be wearing that cut...
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