Tunic designs

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Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on August 22nd, 2009, 9:29 pm

I was looking around for alternative tunic designs and found this find on a Danish man and his clothing
http://www.redrampant.com/2009/06/celti ... thing.html

This interests me mostly because his shirt is laced on the sides not sewn. This is the only source I've found of that sort of thing existing. And for that matter the only alternative tunic design besides the normal tube, and I'm not entirely sure how it works. Thoughts?

I've been wearing my tunics gittelde because it allows more movement and warmth in the winter with longer tunics, especially with over tunics like the gallic coat. It just seems to me for a one piece longish tunic or for woman's clothing a tube is just too confining. Does anyone have any thoughts? Do people just deal with the lack of movement or is there a secret I don't know?
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on August 22nd, 2009, 10:01 pm

Here's more info on what they've called the lacing. Reminds me of later fashions requiring the garment to be sewn onto the wearer.

"Cord-ties as fastening method (Fig. 41)

Image

Sub-Roman: The side seams of the Thorsbjerg shirt are finished by turning the edge under once, then taking a single stitch from the wrong side through and back, the ends of which are plied together. Pairs of these ties on the front and back pieces are then tied to fasten the shirt. There is no indication of any other finish or stitch on these edges. This is also found on the lower leg opening of the Thorsbjerg pants. [Schlabow 1976 Northern Germany, Fig. 141]"

I'm not familiar with gittelde. Do you have a description or link? Gallic coats were more in the Roman period weren't they? Some people here do that time period.

For women's clothing, the tube has to be wide enough to wrap under the arms and come up to the shoulders. It ends up wider than you think. My first attempt at a modernly styled peplos/skinny chiton was actually a little narrow, but it makes a good modern maxidress since I also didn't include the overlap on top.

For men's tunics, I'm not sure, but note that the Thorsberg tunic and trousers were made from diamond twill weave. This would make the fabric stretchier. Go to a suit shop and compare the stretchiness of a herringbone jacket with a regular twill and a non-stretchy plain weave.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on August 22nd, 2009, 10:14 pm

I've never thought of the stretchyness of different materials.
I read about the Gallic coat on the Vicus website and I don't think they made any mention of a post roman influence. To me it seems only logical to have a large over tunic in climates some Celts inhabited.
Gittelde I think refers to the triangle sewn in to the slit of the tunic on the sides and sometimes front and back that was very common in the Viking Period. Though I admit when i was typing the word I thought I might be making that up or mistaken.
From the dimensions listed on the website the mans tunic is below mid thigh for an average sized iron age man and the torso size seems like it would be pretty snug.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Bob Roeder on August 23rd, 2009, 12:30 am

I have never heard of the term "gittelde" in garment-making but I have heard of:

gore - a tapering piece of cloth made or inserted in a skirt or sail, etc. to give it fullness.

E.G.'s - "Viking" tunics found at Kragelund bog (Denmark), Birka, and Hedeby harbor, but of course these are all later examples from a different time and place than the ancient Celts.

and

gusset - a triangular or diamond-shaped piece inserted in a garment, glove, etc. to make it stronger or roomier.

Think the trousers found on the Urumchi mummies; or the Thorsberg trousers. I also recently found blue-jeans on the internet called (excuse the expression) ballroom jeans which have a similar diamond shaped piece at the crotch.

I am very familiar with gores for constructing 18th and early to mid-19th century shirts (found at the bottoms of the side seams which were left open, in the armpits and the collar the the shoulders). I'm still not sure how accurate some of these applications might be for ancient Celtic or Germanic tunics.

I have been hesitating cutting my wool for trousers and tunics because I am having trouble accepting the simple construction methods found at sites like http://www.vicus.org or http://www.gallica.co.uk among others.

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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on August 23rd, 2009, 12:59 am

Well I'm not sure what its called but you get the point.
I was just wondering if there was any evidence of that technique of sewing triangles in the side slits to increase range of movement in La Tene period clothing like ones in the viking age and later.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on August 23rd, 2009, 11:30 pm

Bob, check out the topic "Evidence for V-neck tunics" because Andrew also mentioned trousers there, and I posted my huge research binge about skinny pants. Go down toward the bottom where the Marx-Etzel trousers get mentioned. There's a pdf link that has a cool pattern. All these baggy reenactor pants are really starting to bug me since the western & southern groups didn't seem to have them, just narrow pants. Diamond crotch gussets on baggy pants are a common mid and east Asian thing. The Europeans seem to have done more of a strip from front to back.

Side gores on regular tunics don't seem to be used until well into CE times, but the cavalry on this Hallstat scabbard had flared skirts on the bottom of their tunics. And skinny pants! *biggrin* Image
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on August 24th, 2009, 12:05 am

Gallic coat info from A Companion to Roman Britain by Malcolm Todd. (I do love Google Books.)
"The Gallic evidence shows that the coat was worn by men at all levels in provincial society from at least the Claudian period until the late fourth century (Roche-Bernard 1992, Bohme-Schonberger 1997).

Since Claudius reigned from 41 CE to 54 CE, you could wear the baggier coat as early as that. From a fashion history standpoint, think about the silhouette. That's usually the most important thing in getting a trend right. So the Romans come in, and the important ones are wearing togas. Pretty soon, the common fashion shifts to being more voluminous. Sleeves get long enough to push up and create folds. The body width increases and creates more draping, but the coats are still more practical than togas.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Bob Roeder on August 24th, 2009, 8:32 pm

[quote="Becky Watkins Tien"]Bob, check out the topic "Evidence for V-neck tunics" because Andrew also mentioned trousers there.......]

Becky, yes I did see the thread you refer to and was very glad as it definitely reinforced my thoughts that there must be more to putting together a pair of pants than making a simple pattern from a pair of blue jeans or pajamas pants, especially in light of what the evidence shows. Without any specific examples of "Celtic" trousers simple seems like the most logical solution, but......Anyway, this line of thought lead me to question the construction of tunics though it seems to be easier to fit a tunic, but there always seems to be a problem with fitting trousers unless they are baggy - Leaves more room for error but is it correct? The legs are not too difficult but there always needs to be room for movement, especially at the seat and crotch.

In case anyone is interested I posted a link to the German hosiery website at the "Evidence for V-neck tunics" thread just to keep that info in one thread.

Cheers,
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on August 24th, 2009, 10:31 pm

The Hallstat scabbard is very interesting and it deffinetly looks like there is a difference between the amount of fabric on the torso than the skirt. It might be just the evidence I need for making a baggier skirt on my tunics.

Can anyone think of any alternatives to making a baggier skirt without side gores that might be more Iron Age appropriate? They almost look pleated but from what I've seen pleating tunics didn't come around till at the latest, late medeival, when leine came into style. Pleating would also increase the complexity of a tunic greatly. A little to much work for an every day sort of thing.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 2nd, 2009, 12:30 am

It reminds me of Greek hoplite clothing, so I looked that up. Turns out the skirt isn't part of the tunic at all, but is a part of the cuirass called pteriges.
http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/armour ... lcuir.html
Image

And the whole outfit:
Image

The top is different, but it seems like the same concept as what's shown on the scabbard. I know very little about fightin' stuff, so maybe someone with armor experience might wander in here and clear things up.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Will Marshall-Hall on September 5th, 2009, 6:27 pm

Becky,

I have noticed that all the representations of Braccae whether in sculpture or pottery from the period, as well as litterary evidence all suggests the iron age people wore fairly close fitting trousers. However, including myself, I am yet to see a reenactor wear a pair of Braccae that dont look like you are wearing Pampers underneath. Ive been thinking about this for a while, because the Angelyn iron age braccae found in a bog are not particularly close fitting either.

Do you think the art is showing high status Celts who could afford to have their clothes tailored and cut ? Or do you think that the secret is in the use of the warp and weft in the loom woven cloth? The closest I have got so far are by cutting the trousers from the blanket that has been laid diagonally rather than a square. ie, instead of laying the cloth out as a square infront of me, I turned it until it resembled a diamond shape.

What do you think?
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Clinton Wiltse on September 6th, 2009, 10:38 pm

So i've been reading at the threads regarding close fitting pants. Here are some of my observations and opinions, feel free to argue.

On engravings and carvings of warriors: Is it really that the pants were fitted, or that the artwork represents the human form? In much of the ancient art (or art in general) I've seen human legs are represented as tapered or shaped as they actually are. This would help define a figure as human better than having them drawn with fat chunky legs. Think of how a child draws a person with a square torso and triangle legs.

On the fabrication of textiles and clothing: Fitting a pair of pants would eliminate the ability for that pair to be traded or exchanged between people. It would also be much harder to make in the first place, higher chance of error and turning the whole pair of pants into a scarf. They may have been tapered or straight leg, not boot cut or relaxed fit like many modern pants.

I know I'm missing several points I thought of earlier, but I'll post them when they come to mind.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 7th, 2009, 2:09 am

I think there was some artistic license for the images of very fitted pants, but they were actually more fitted than modern men's straight-leg pants. The same style pants were portrayed in southern Europe, Thrace, and Phrygia, but I think the Alexander Sarcophagus gets it right with the realistic images of the Persians. Note that the guy in the foreground has the same zig-zags as seen in the other regions.
Image

Some other pics are here:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/Alex ... hagus.html
Image
(As a side note, this guy has seperate soles on his shoes.)

It looks like the pants either have attached feet or straps like stirrup pants to hold them in place inside the shoes. The zig-zags, the hatching on the Gundestrup cauldron, and the diamond weave of the Thorsberg trousers lead me to believe that most pants were made with herringbone cloth to give more stretch. Cutting your blanket on the bias (diagonally) gives the same effect. Unfortunately, we don't get to see the pelvic area. They could very well fit like diapers, and you just hide it under your tunic. I dunno. *confused* This guy looks a bit baggy around the pelvis, with the top of his pants turned over, maybe a belt underneath? A bronze statuette from Alesia, France (Aw, man, that's huge. How do you make things smaller?):
Image


In reading about trade, I've always gotten the impression that no matter the region, the trade was typically either fresh fabric or elaborately decorated torso-covering items that wouldn't need to be so fitted. I could be totally wrong about that, but that's just what it has seemed like. The fresh fabric is easy to transport, and the elaborate pieces have their value in the decoration.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Clinton Wiltse on September 7th, 2009, 12:35 pm

To clarify my trading comment. I was thinking more in terms of interfamily or hand-me-downs. Of course body style may have been similar with family members,
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on September 7th, 2009, 1:36 pm

I still want to know a source for loose fitting pants. I've looked in a lot of places (including this forum) and there doesn't seem to be any sources. Multiples places even address that there isn't any source but that seems to be the general consensus with re-enactors and modern artists. To me the loose fitting pants makes a lot of sense; in hot weather loose fitting pants would be cooler but in the winter they still supply plenty of warmth, they are easier to make (like Clinton said, more room for error) and you wouldn't have to worry about bunching pelvic area (I made a pair of pants that I tried to tailor to be tight fitting and partially I just messed up doing it but also it did exactly what the mans pants in the last picture on Becky's post is doing, bunching very strangely and just being generally uncomfortable). I can see maybe having well tailored pants for battle or a formal-ish occasion but for everyday I would just throw together a pair of pants that had a lot of room to move and stretch.

Also just a thought, don't you think herringbone, tight fitting pants ride up like crazy if you going through the movements required in battle?
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 8th, 2009, 10:02 am

Clinton,
Aha, yes. I can wear lots of my mom's clothing from when she was my age, and my husband wore his brothers' hand-me-downs, so familial similarity helps.

Alex,
The Scythians, Bactrians, and Qin soldiers had looser trousers, so it's more of an Asian thing. (My husband is ethnically Chinese, so he keeps pushing for me to let him wear baggy pants.) I'm curious about the Angelyn braccae Will mentioned. Any pics out there? Also, I support the undocumented idea that people might have worn baggy trousers over tight trousers in cold weather for the extra warmth.

Maybe riding up is why they had attached feet or straps? Although I never really had that problem with tight '80s jeans. I'm in the middle of making a pattern for some trousers out of paper, so I hope to see how annoying the extra bunchiness at the top might be. (Less annoying than corsets and high heels, I expect. *wink*) I'm tapering from the calf to the ankle and using that cloth as a gusset for the top of the thigh.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby John Olinger on September 8th, 2009, 7:24 pm

Clinton Wiltse wrote:So i've been reading at the threads regarding close fitting pants. Here are some of my observations and opinions, feel free to argue.

On engravings and carvings of warriors: Is it really that the pants were fitted, or that the artwork represents the human form? In much of the ancient art (or art in general).


In recent trips to the Los Angles Museum of Art (the Pompeii Exhibit) and the Getty Villa, I noticed that the dress "fabric" on female sculptures appeared to be very thin and, in fact, look very clingy, almost wet. I'm sure that it was done to show the feminine form. Art seldom imitates life. Maybe the tight pants are the same.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Joe Watkins on September 9th, 2009, 6:18 am

I'm sure that it was done to show the feminine form. Art seldom imitates life. Maybe the tight pants are the same.
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i agree, as an artist i am often loathe to cover up a piece of anatomy (such as a leg,) that i might be proud of with pants, this leads to alot of unfinished pictures of people without pants.
i know it would be different with sculpting (because i dont believe you can add on to a sculpture like you can with a drawing) but it might be a similar instance, maybe the artist just never wanted to sculpt pants, so they made all the pants form-fitting.
just a theory

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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Clinton Wiltse on September 9th, 2009, 10:20 pm

Just like covering a face with a distracting object if you're not good at faces. I notice this with many older fantasy art pieces. They often use a cloak, torch, weapon, to partially obscure a face. There are many art tricks to get aorund something you can't or don't want to do.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 10th, 2009, 12:24 am

OK, the paper pants are done, and they worked well. The legs fit fine, the front could easily pleat into a triangle like on the Alesian statuette, and the seat was puffy as Will described. I didn't think it bunched uncomfortably at all, but I'm, uh, shaped differently in that area. The seat and one knee tore only at the deepest part of a test squat, but remember it was made of packing paper. The puffy seat could be reduced since that was where the flap came around to the back, but you may sacrifice some mobility while trying to squat. And if you don't go around shirtless, nobody will know you have a baggy bottom. Regrettably, I won't have access to a scanner for another couple of weeks or else I would scan the pattern. I might try to find my camera and cables and post a picture of the pattern and the resulting pants. I modified the Marx-Etzel design to make them longer, thinner, and with thigh gussets and a waist rollover.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby John Olinger on September 15th, 2009, 9:14 pm

Patterns:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/coldcloth.html

John
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on September 16th, 2009, 10:38 am

Good link. The "simple trouser pattern" seems based on modern construction, but will do if you're not fretting about that sort of thing. I'm glad to be reminded of the Sami trousers here:
http://www.frojel.com/Documents/Document04.html But it looks like the patterns are reconstructions by Viktoria Persdotter. She did much the same thing I'm doing, so no fault there. Here's another link that has a pattern for the Thorsberg trousers. http://www.shelaghlewins.com/reenactmen ... iption.htm If this is accurate, then I was wrong in another thread about curvilinear patterns. I'm sticking with straight lines and no waste of cloth, but I'm going for an earlier time period.

My 3rd paper pattern added in seat gussets similar to the Sami trousers, but not going up so high. I kept the seat flap like the other extant trousers. So I kinda made a mutt pattern that doesn't waste cloth and is similar in concept to the historical types. Pleats in the front and back keep the puffiness down. I'll post pics in the pattern portion of the gallery when I get a cloth version made.

My 2nd paper pattern DID bunch and feel awful. The problems were making the crotch too high and the thigh gussets too wide. That's why I switched to seat gussets to get extra squatting room.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Alex Hovorka on September 20th, 2009, 5:03 pm

Post those patterns as soon as possible, I'm going to be making a new pair of pants for winter and would love to use your pattern.
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on October 8th, 2009, 11:52 pm

I finally looked at the Vicus website to see their outfits. Very good info! (Although some of the pictured reenactors don't entirely represent the recommendations.) They portray "roughly the first two generations after the Roman invasion of Britain AD 43," so they're well into the Gallic coat and hooded cloak period. This guy has a good Gallic coat. All baggy and wooly - it makes me want to curl up with a cup of cocoa and a book. Er, warm mead and a bard.
Image
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Re: Tunic designs

Postby Dru Durman on October 9th, 2009, 5:09 am

Hmmn. I've done some experimenting with trouser patterns and as a result have tried various styles. First thing I realised is that doing the whole 'pyjama bottoms' pattern meant I was constantly patching the crotch. Looking at things like the Thorsbergs and Dammendorfs it becomes clear that a baggy crotch was normal. The 'median' seam of today's trousers just doesn't hold up too well. Also, looking at medieval depictions of peasants working in the fields with their hose off, stripped down to their braies, they look like they're wearing nappies! Hopefully I've been successful in adding the link..
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Braies.jpg
I saw another possible pattern (figure 3 in the sketched attachment) which I really rather like. There's no seam in the middle, just up the sides of each leg. The crotch definitely bags, but in a triangular style very similar to the morroccan 'celt' (also hopefully attached).
http://www.vicus.org.uk/kitguide/index.htm
When I made them myself, I made them fairly loose, but I've also made a pair much closer fitting, literally, like stockings (basically medieval hose joined at the top...) You still get a baggy crotch that won't split, but fitted to the leg. I've (hopefully) attached a pic of me in the loose fitted pair...
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braccae.jpg

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Dywow genes!
(Cornish: Gods be with you!)

Drustanos

http://www.dumnonika.com
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Dru Durman
 
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Posts: 1172
Joined: October 4, 2009
My Location: Devon, UK
Tribe: Dumnonii
Region: South West Britain
Time period: 1st Century AD
aka: Drustanos

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