evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

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evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Andrew Malcolm on July 3rd, 2009, 9:28 pm

Hello,

does anybody out there have any evidence for the V neck tunic that I keep seeing in the galleries of various groups world wide? The only image that I have for V neck tunic is the Gundestrup cauldron.
Image

another item of clothing that keeps cropping up is the sleevless tunic. I have been guilty of wearing one, but is there really any evidence for these?
And one last thing.....ankle ties. I know I have asked the question before but perhaps some one has found something since. I see a lot of it in modern depictions ie illustrations, but is there any evidence?

Image

There fore, is the V neck tunic, sleevless tunic, and ankle ties a very incorrect representation of the celt? I think so!
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:36 pm

I’ve been wondering the same thing about pants. All the historical representations I’ve found show everybody from Persia to Gaul wearing slender to medium pants with attached feet. I wonder if the first modern artists to create images of IA men thought (like my husband) that the slender pants looked silly, or they just didn’t have enough information, so they went with straight, loose pants bound at the ankle, thinking it was a predecessor to cross gartering.

I’ve been compiling a bit of a trouser timeline in an attempt to figure out bracae construction. I’ll post each example one at a time to avoid problems with my glitchy computer.

Cherchen, ca 1000 BCE: Straight from the waist to the ankle, not tapered. Asymmetrical. Has an ample square crotch gusset inserted diagonally. Wool felt.
Page 37-39 of: http://books.google.com/books?id=xH1agY ... t&resnum=1
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:37 pm

Halstatt scabbard, ca 500 BCE: Slender. Down to ankle. Attached to foot coverings. Horizontal zigzag and straight stripes.

Image
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:39 pm

Bactrian, ca 500 BCE: Baggy, stuffed into boots.

Image
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:41 pm

Medes, ca 500BCE: Medium legs. Slightly tapered from hip to ankle. Attached to foot coverings. Note that the man on the left is holding a pair of trousers

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:43 pm

Cappadocian, ca 500 BCE: Like the Medes. Note the bow fibulae on their cloaks.

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:44 pm

Scythians, ca 500 BCE: Same as the Medes and Cappadocians

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:47 pm

Phrygian/Amazon, ca 380 BCE: Slender. Down to ankle. Horizontal zigzag stripes. Probably attached foot coverings. (There is another type of Phrygian trouser which is made completely differently. Cloth wraps around each leg and buttons up the front of each leg, leaving the crotch exposed.)

http://www.artmuseum.gov.mo/photodetail ... 01026&lc=3

and

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:49 pm

Qin terracotta army, 246-209 BCE: Wide legs. Slightly tapered from hip to ankle.

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:51 pm

Persian, ca 150 BCE: Slender, tapered from hip to ankle. Probably attached foot coverings.

Image

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:54 pm

Gundestrup, ca 1st century BCE: (Back to Andrew's pic) Slender, ends at top of knee (feminalia). What appears to be striped or quilted cloth looks like herringbone twill when viewed closer. The main concern is the apparent lack of a crotch gusset. If the artist is accurate, then how was this garment made so that the crotch or backside didn’t rip? There is no extant evidence of curvilinear pattern pieces like we have today. Here is a reenactor pattern for loose bracae, but I don’t know how well this type of pattern would work for tighter fits.

Image

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 5th, 2009, 4:58 pm

Thorsberg, ca 4th century CE: Slender, down to ankle. Attached foot coverings. Elaborate gussets and strips to provide room around the pelvis. Beltloops. Wool diamond twill.

Image

Using a weave like herringbone twill gives the fabric a little bit of stretch, thus allowing a tighter fit. The zigzag stripes seen in Hallstatt and Anatolia may also be a similar stretchy weave.

So if all the long trousers in Europe and Western Asia from 500 BCE to 300 CE are tapered and footed, what are you guys doing wearing pajama pants? *wink*
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Andrew Malcolm on July 5th, 2009, 8:15 pm

I have an image of a small bronze gaul lying down from Alesia. Unfortunately I can not post the picture but can email it to anybody if interested. He wears pants, close fitting, no ankle ties, and has a very chunky belt almost like a belt of thick cloth. PM me if youd like this picture, or if somebody has it then please post here.
But what of the V neck tunic? Alot of re-enactors are seen wearing these. Where is the evidence?
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Kevin Beckham on July 7th, 2009, 6:01 pm

Gundestup can not be used as a reliable source.

The silverworking techniques used in the cauldron are unknown from the Celtic world, but are consistent with the renowned Thracian sheet-silver tradition; the scenes depicted are not distinctively Thracian, but certain elements of composition, decorative motifs and illustrated items (such as the shoelaces on the "Cernunnos" figure) identify it as Thracian work (Bergquist, A. K. & Taylor, T. F. (1987) "The origin of the Gundestrup cauldron" in Antiquity Vol. 61, 1987. pp. 10-24).

Bergquist and Taylor propose manufacture by a Thracian craftsman, possibly commissioned by the Celtic Scordisci and fallen into the hands of the Cimbri who invaded the Middle lower Danube in 120 BC.

Here is an example of a non-v-neck tunic found in southern Germany...http://www.euratlas.com/Atlas/germany_r ... _celt.html

The statue seems to be weareing sandal boots that have the trousers tucked into them.

As for the ankle ties, if one wears boots, the trousers are tucked into the boot, no need for ankle ties. Another suggestion is to tie ones shoes around the ankle, this is more comfortable than having leather tied around the bare skin. Another practical reason to tie at the ankle is to prevent fleas and ticks to crawl up your legs.
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on July 8th, 2009, 11:35 am

About Gundestrup, yes, it was probably crafted by a Thracian. However, I've read that many people still count the imagery as reflecting Gallic motifs. I'm not sure why the laced shoes would be particularly Thracian. That style is also seen on Persians at Persepolis and Susa ca 500 BCE and later across Europe, so it seems to have been pretty popular. Anyway, I agree that the imagery might be unreliable concerning clothing styles due to its mixed origin and its focus on religious rather than sartorial concerns. Plus, those pants just don't make sense.

I haven't found any v-neck or split-neck tunics, either. Everything I've been looking at has a loose boat neck or a curved neck.
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Andrew Malcolm on July 8th, 2009, 6:05 pm

The knee length pants as depicted on the Gundestrup cauldron can also be found with the pants from Marx Etzel.

Lets hear from some of those that wear V necks and their evidence for wearing them? As they are a very common depiction amongst re-enactors.
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby J Meijer on August 2nd, 2009, 5:23 pm

Andrew Malcolm wrote:another item of clothing that keeps cropping up is the sleevless tunic. I have been guilty of wearing one, but is there really any evidence for these?


The socalled 'Marx-Etzel tunic'.
Sleeveless with a, if I'm correct, straight slit for the head/neck. I'm still not sure what the dating for this piece is, but if I'm not mistaken it's supposed to be (a lot) more than two thousand years old. I've read somewhere that it is 1000 - 500 b.c., but I have my doubts about that rather 'crude' dating.


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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Andrew Malcolm on August 3rd, 2009, 4:43 am

Thanks,
How silly of me, I refered the Marx Etzel shorts, but not the tunic!!!
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Becky Watkins Tien on August 3rd, 2009, 4:24 pm

Yay, more info! I hadn't seen the Marx-Etzel pants before, and now I love them. The Gundestrup pants completely make sense now, with just a little artistic license. I never had a problem with the length, just the crotch. Here's a pdf that has a pattern for the Marx-Etzel pants on page 8: http://www.historiclife.com/pdf/BattleofHasting.pdf

The pants are made from one rectangular piece of fabric which wraps from front to back. Angled cuts up the legs in the front form a panel which is brought from the front, under the crotch, and up the back to give extra room in the seat. The angle of the cuts makes the fabric fit close to the thighs. The legs have to be at least long enough to make a panel long enough to wrap up to the back waistband. Of course, you could cut off extra leg length, but why bother?
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby J Meijer on August 4th, 2009, 1:37 am

In the book 'Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland' are a few drawings that show the construction a little bit better. If anyone is interested in them, I could scan them in, sometime this week.


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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Andrew Malcolm on August 4th, 2009, 4:03 am

Please do :)
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Magalí de la Reina on August 6th, 2009, 7:33 am

J Meijer wrote:In the book 'Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland' are a few drawings that show the construction a little bit better. If anyone is interested in them, I could scan them in, sometime this week.


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And if someone needs a translation of the explanations to the drawings from German to English, let me know..... :)
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Bob Roeder on August 24th, 2009, 8:44 pm

With regard to trousers: Here is a link to the German Hosiery Museum:

http://www.german-hosiery-museum.de/geschichte/geschichte_01.html

If you just find the museum website Room 1 deals with early periods, though it does focus on German(ic) examples.

Andrew, with regard to sleevless tunics - I know that I saw a Roman sculptural representation of either a "German" or Dacian wearing a sleevless tunic; possibly Trajan's column, I'll remember sooner or later. I doubt this supports the notion of sleeveless tunics for "Celts" but it does show they existed somewhere.

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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby Alex Hovorka on August 24th, 2009, 10:34 pm

It seems logical to me that celts in hotter climates like Spain and lower France would just take off the sleaves of their tunics for particularly hot seasons. Though I have absolutely no evidence to back that.
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Re: evidence for V neck tunics and other querries.

Postby G-Gulino on September 9th, 2009, 5:27 pm

also in ireland while not have much evidence from pre christian times in way of clothing, it seems to be they wore the knee length pants aswell as tight full length with either feet in them as seen above or a simple strap under the foot.
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